now here is a thought...

[yarrumsg]

i've just realised Bob keeps banging on about "we will never be a colony again"

did i not miss something here and Smith gave the big Q the two fingers while declareing UDI? Rhodesia wasn't a colony by that stage?

[Belladonna]

But in the end, after UDI, was there anything different for the indigenous population? They still did not have any rights. So from their perspective, they were still a colony.

[lurchandpasta]

Yeah, but when are they going to realize that they had it a hell of a lot better then that what they have got now.

[Belladonna]

Many of them do admit that they had it better with Ian Smith, but can you honestly say that you would be happy living in the country where you and your family originate and yet have absolutely no say in how it is run, your movements are restricted, the jobs you can hold are capped, the schools you can attend are designated, etc? How fair is that?

Don't think that I am some tree hugger or human rights activist, but I do believe that although they were better off, it wasn't right. But then, I also saw internal communications from within the Rhodesian Government which laid out the plan that was in hand to gradually integrate the indigenous population into mainstream society. To my mind the time scale was too large, but the principle was sound and would have avoided the current situation. Unfortunately, the British people got behind Mugabe and the British Government helped him into power, totally disregarding warnings from people within the country, of the type of man he was.

[yarrumsg]

erm... so what's the difference i was born there and i have the same rights as a peanut...

[Belladonna]

You are free to go into any shop you choose, you can walk into any bar, nightclub, park or cinema you like. You can vote (okay, not that anyone's votes actually count, but you can at least try). If you are brave enough, you can leave your house before 6am and stay out after 6pm. If you find the right company, you can fill any job for which you are qualified and have the experience. If you can afford it or have a good medical aid, you can be admitted to any hospital. Your children can attend the best school that you can afford. You can live in any part of the country. Need I go on?

[lurchandpasta]

Many of them do admit that they had it better with Ian SmithThis much I know, I have worked with many of them and spoken to them about their situation, I, like you are not a tree hugger, but I care about the well being of humans.but I do believe that although they were better off, it wasn't right. Yes, they were much better off, and no, it was not right. At the end of the day, they have to stand together and remove Mugabe. Once they have done this, they need to dictate to the next one how things must work, after all the government must work for the country, not the other way round like what is happening at the moment.

In a normal country, if the government can't give the people what they want, they can boot him and elect someone new.

[lurchandpasta]

erm... so what's the difference i was born there and i have the same rights as a peanut...Both my father and I were born there. It does nothing for our rights, because in Zim, the words "Human Rights" don't mean jack sh*t.

[Belladonna]

All we have to do is look at the rest of Africa to know that what is happening is not unusual, nor is it going to be resolved any time soon. Nor will it be resolved peacefully. As sad as the thought is, this is all part of the evolution of civilisation. The white man went to Africa, for good or bad reasons, we can never truly know and acted in a totally unconsidered manner. Borders were placed between countries based on the course of rivers or mountains, throwing together warring tribes within one nation. Development was introduced far too quickly and the indigenous populations were not included in the building nor development other than in the role of labourers. The white man messed with something they did not understand and boy, what a mess it has created.

And if you look back in the history of any country, you will find the same or similar occurences. For an example, look at mud island. The English Civil War was not that much different to what is happening in Zim, although it was about religion. There were land seizures and government by terror. All that has happened in Africa is that their civilisations are evolving later, and this was not helped by our intereference.

[joemac]

And if you look back in the history of any country, you will find the same or similar occurences. For an example, look at mud island. The English Civil War was not that much different to what is happening in Zim, although it was about religion. There were land seizures and government by terror. All that has happened in Africa is that their civilisations are evolving later, and this was not helped by our intereference.

You are right in this I think, Bella. It is just tribal conquest, continuing as it has done for thousands of years. It is no too dissimilar to biblical stories of fighting for recognition and land rights.

[boards]

you would think that with all the thousands of years of history we would learn from our mistakes??

[Angelshark]

[QUOTE=Belladonna;124074]Many of them do admit that they had it better with Ian Smith, but can you honestly say that you would be happy living in the country where you and your family originate and yet have absolutely no say in how it is run, your movements are restricted, the jobs you can hold are capped, the schools you can attend are designated, etc? How fair is that?.QUOTE]

Pretty much how the live now, wouldnt you say

[lurchandpasta]

you would think that with all the thousands of years of history we would learn from our mistakes??Unfortunately, man always thinks he can do better the second time round.

[yarrumsg]

You are free to go into any shop you choose, you can walk into any bar, nightclub, park or cinema you like. You can vote (okay, not that anyone's votes actually count, but you can at least try). If you are brave enough, you can leave your house before 6am and stay out after 6pm. If you find the right company, you can fill any job for which you are qualified and have the experience. If you can afford it or have a good medical aid, you can be admitted to any hospital. Your children can attend the best school that you can afford. You can live in any part of the country. Need I go on?

mmm... not 100% true, i might in theory be able to walk into any bar nightclub etc... but ur not always 100% welcome at them... this leaving the house business had it been over the elections i'd beg to differ my sister got death threats ever other night saying that if any whites were out past 6 they'd kill them. zim has it's own affirmitive action plan... good medical aid doesn't exist in zim unless ur on bupa... you can be on the best medical aid zim has to offer and pay in zim$ good luck... my nieces were born they almost had to be rushed to sa... 5000£ plane flight and R500 000 hospital deposit, my grandfather had to sell 3 of his trucks from his fleet to pay for surgery.

i'd feel safer walking through harlow than being in zim at the moment, i'd not feel safe going through a road block in a uk drivers license now.

at the end of the day had smith still been in charge or had who ever his replacement would have been, like sa i'm sure it would have gone through a transition, it would not have been the way it was befor "independance"

[joemac]

I would love to find those pricks like Harold Wilson and Say

"there you go mate. This is what you wanted. What you supported.
You discarded all those years years of fighting on behalf of England in your world wars,
. Cheers"

[Belladonna]

Sorry Yarumsg, but I'm not sure how much you remember of Rhodesia after UDI and pre 'Independence'. The indigenous people, who were there long before we were, did not choose to stay indoors between 6pm and 6am - it was the law!! It was not a question of it being unsafe. Maybe medical is expensive, but you cannot compare not being able to afford the bills to not being permitted to use the facilities. You say you aren't welcome in some bars/nightclubs? Big difference between not being welcome and not being allowed in - by law!!

I could not imagine living like that, having every part of my life controlled by someone else. They had absolutely no choices. Ooops, I lie - they could choose to live in the Tribal Trust Lands or in the Township!! They could choose to be a garden worker, house worker, artisans assistant or similar. No chance of promotion of course, regardless of ability or skill. The people of Zimbabwe did not put Mugabe in power, the International community did that - inside information actually shows that Muzorewa won the election. And Muzorewa was a deeply religious, fairly level headed man, who also had negotiated an agreement with the Rhodesian Front!!

No-one in their right mind can deny that the people of Zimbabwe were better off in many ways prior to independence. But no-one with half a brain could say for a minute, that the situation now in any way compares to the way the Rhodesian Government and early settlers treated the indigenous population. The two are poles apart.